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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2628
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Posted - 2014.04.23 07:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
If tanks are balanced, around about the same KDR as anyone on an equal skill level who isn't a Logi or AV.
You shouldn't be getting hundreds of kills, tanks have a much more tactical advantage than just kills.
I would EXPECT considerably more WP by being a tanker.
Transport Assists
Vehicle Spawns
Suppression Assists
Vehicle Damage
Triage/Guardian Points
Intel Kill Assists
A tanker should be rewarded for more actions than just killing. Say he roles into an enemy line at high speed kills 3-4 infamtry before retreating, the actions of pushingnthat line will cause more units than just the ones he kills to open fire on him. He has therefore distracted the enemy and should be given a small reward.
As it stands there are only 3 things you get WP for in a tank, Kills, Vehicle damage/destruction, you gunner killing someone.
So you are only rewarded for doing those actions, tankers need rewards for action that currently not a lot of them do. A tank can and should be a hell of a lot more of a team asset then it currently is.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2628
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Posted - 2014.04.23 07:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Balanced would be 1.
Av should blow up tanks and tanks should kill infantry.
the whole a good tanker can survive thing is bs. Tankers can kill avers infantry can't kill tanks like they used to.
Meaning tanks need to be as vulnerable to av as infantry is to vehicles now
Balance is 1:1:1
How can you equate a hard armor infantry support ... anti-vehicle " Machine " against a " Meat-Bag " ??? That's like saying , " A car should be as strong as a person or the person that's driving it . " and if that was the case ... there would be way more vehicular homicide's . That's in the physical since and not mentally , a good driver is a strong driver like a good anti-vehicle trooper is a strong one , but again that's mental . People that say that just don't make much since to me but what do I know ??? Comparing a vehicle machine to a person slash " Meat-Bag " just doesn't seem like sound reasoning or balance .
Its pure and simple algebra actually.
1man = 1man
1 tank > 1man
therfore in order for a balanced statement, something must be > than tank, but < than man. This is AV
1man < 1tank < 1AV < 1man
That is balance, however as you are probably aware
A tank can kill an AVer
An AVer can kill infantry
This is fair, because it is required for defence and you (should) be much less effective at doing so, thus you have a reduced chance of fighti g back against your counter, but you can at least fight back.
Infantry cannot fight a tank, so instead we give supply depots which allows infamtry to swap out for AV, this is balanced because you can kill them before they get to the supply depot. In addition if they respawn, they already died once so baalnce is maintained.
If however it requires multiple people to destroy/reasonably suppress (as in for a significant enough time to allow an infantry to make a push) then tank becomes greater than infantry and you end up with pure unbalance.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2628
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Posted - 2014.04.23 09:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote:SGT NOVA STAR wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:I don't think it should be anything, it depends on how you use it and how good you are but against infantry it can range from 6.0 to 100+ however if you are someone who only does tank v tank I think anything above 2 is good, 3 is "you're pretty good", 4 is awesome and 5 is godlike. Tanker all time kdr usually is somewhere slightly above the best slayers. Total kill count per match is however considerably lower for a tanker than it is for the best slayers in a single match, ambush is however completely random as it depends so much on the spawns.  5 is godlike? k.... id say 10 would be godlike I'm not talking about stomping wannabe tankers, I'm talking about going up against proper tankers.
Depends though doesn't, if we want (and I can only assume we all do) to keep the regularity of tanks as near as damn it to now, I would expect AV Tanker to probably be as good (overall) as a Infantry Slayer. You can't really give a fixed value because there are too many variables.
All the OP really wants to know is, do you think a tanker should have a higher or lower KDR than equivalent skill infantry?
Wether you disagree with me or not, I believe that role dependant a tanker should be ABOUT the same as infantry, unless of course you are role that has a high tendancy to die (AV, Logi, Vanguard Scout, Vanguard Heavy).
Although and I hope you do agree, there are considrably more actions that merit a warpoint reward that some tankers already do. MCRU spawn points, Intel Kill Assists, maybe even distraction and guardian bonuses (friendly infantry getting kills from within a certain proximty of your tank), stuff that encourages tighter play between vehicles and infantry.
At the same time infantry should be rewarded for protecting your tank, such as warpoint commisions for killing AVers who are firing upon you tank, triage points for tank healing etc.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2628
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Posted - 2014.04.23 10:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
MarasdF Loron wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:SGT NOVA STAR wrote:MarasdF Loron wrote:I don't think it should be anything, it depends on how you use it and how good you are but against infantry it can range from 6.0 to 100+ however if you are someone who only does tank v tank I think anything above 2 is good, 3 is "you're pretty good", 4 is awesome and 5 is godlike. Tanker all time kdr usually is somewhere slightly above the best slayers. Total kill count per match is however considerably lower for a tanker than it is for the best slayers in a single match, ambush is however completely random as it depends so much on the spawns. 5 is godlike? k.... id say 10 would be godlike I'm not talking about stomping wannabe tankers, I'm talking about going up against proper tankers. Depends though doesn't, if we want (and I can only assume we all do) to keep the regularity of tanks as near as damn it to now, I would expect AV Tanker to probably be as good (overall) as a Infantry Slayer. You can't really give a fixed value because there are too many variables. All the OP really wants to know is, do you think a tanker should have a higher or lower KDR than equivalent skill infantry? Wether you disagree with me or not, I believe that role dependant a tanker should be ABOUT the same as infantry, unless of course you are role that has a high tendancy to die (AV, Logi, Vanguard Scout, Vanguard Heavy). Although and I hope you do agree, there are considrably more actions that merit a warpoint reward that some tankers already do. MCRU spawn points, Intel Kill Assists, maybe even distraction and guardian bonuses (friendly infantry getting kills from within a certain proximty of your tank), stuff that encourages tighter play between vehicles and infantry. At the same time infantry should be rewarded for protecting your tank, such as warpoint commisions for killing AVers who are firing upon you tank, triage points for tank healing etc. There's few problems with your comparison of AV tanker vs infantry slayer. AV tanker has no way to get out of a no win situation, it's too big to hide and not agile enough to dodge enemy fire reliably while retreating and changing directions is slow so you cannot change your mind about which route to take in split second, all of which an infantry player can do. As a Slayer if you know you wont come out on top in a situation, most of the time you can run for cover. Also you as a Slayer will most likely have anywhere between 800-1000 EHP and the infantry that you stomp has 300-500 EHP (of course slayer vs slayer this doesn't apply) but tankers have only marginal EHP differences between fits and SP levels. That is why it is highly unlikely to kill 5 enemy tankers who know what they are doing one after another without dying. And it is almost impossible to engage in 1v2 and come out on top, where as infantry can do 1v5 and come out on top. Why is that? Time for arbitrary numbers: 5200 EHP and 800 DPS vs 5200+5200 EHP and 800+800 DPS, big enough targets to not miss. Or you could have 1000 EHP and 500 DPS vs 500+300+400+300+300 EHP and 300+400+350+400+300 DPS, small enough targets to miss if strafing.
While this is true you also have to consider positioning, a tanker can take much more advantage of getting behind there opponent, mainly that a turret takes time to turn.
With AV you can use objects and sockets as soff cover, you can even use the lay of the land to you advantage.
Also not meaning to be rude, but as a Slayer I typically run 480 EHP amd I slay suits with typically between 800-1000 EHP 
There are no doubt differences, but a skilled slayer is at no less a disadvantage in 1v5 fight than a tank, stealth kills are a whole different kettle of fish. Although I would like to refemce missile tanks as being the closest to a stealth kill on a tank. Im only saying when tanks are balanced both against AV and vehicles, a tanker taking on an Anti infantry role shouldn't really excel in KDR than an equivalent skilled infamtryman doing the same role.
However there are more tactical advantages that will allow a team with a tank to excel more.
1tank = 1man but
1tank + 4men > 5men
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2628
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Posted - 2014.04.23 10:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:
Its pure and simple algebra actually.
1man = 1man
1 tank > 1man
therfore in order for a balanced statement, something must be > than tank, but < than man. This is AV
1man < 1tank < 1AV < 1man
That is balance, however as you are probably aware
A tank can kill an AVer
An AVer can kill infantry
This is fair, because it is required for defence and you (should) be much less effective at doing so, thus you have a reduced chance of fighti g back against your counter, but you can at least fight back.
Infantry cannot fight a tank, so instead we give supply depots which allows infamtry to swap out for AV, this is balanced because you can kill them before they get to the supply depot. In addition if they respawn, they already died once so baalnce is maintained.
If however it requires multiple people to destroy/reasonably suppress (as in for a significant enough time to allow an infantry to make a push) then tank becomes greater than infantry and you end up with pure unbalance.
too bad CCP Shanghai logic does not work like that
In time my friend, in time.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2629
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Posted - 2014.04.23 14:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:Auris Lionesse wrote:Balanced would be 1.
Av should blow up tanks and tanks should kill infantry.
the whole a good tanker can survive thing is bs. Tankers can kill avers infantry can't kill tanks like they used to.
Meaning tanks need to be as vulnerable to av as infantry is to vehicles now
Balance is 1:1:1
How can you equate a hard armor infantry support ... anti-vehicle " Machine " against a " Meat-Bag " ??? That's like saying , " A car should be as strong as a person or the person that's driving it . " and if that was the case ... there would be way more vehicular homicide's . That's in the physical since and not mentally , a good driver is a strong driver like a good anti-vehicle trooper is a strong one , but again that's mental . People that say that just don't make much since to me but what do I know ??? Comparing a vehicle machine to a person slash " Meat-Bag " just doesn't seem like sound reasoning or balance . Its pure and simple algebra actually. 1man = 1man 1 tank > 1man therfore in order for a balanced statement, something must be > than tank, but < than man. This is AV 1man < 1tank < 1AV < 1man That is balance, however as you are probably aware A tank can kill an AVer An AVer can kill infantry This is fair, because it is required for defence and you (should) be much less effective at doing so, thus you have a reduced chance of fighti g back against your counter, but you can at least fight back. Infantry cannot fight a tank, so instead we give supply depots which allows infamtry to swap out for AV, this is balanced because you can kill them before they get to the supply depot. In addition if they respawn, they already died once so baalnce is maintained. If however it requires multiple people to destroy/reasonably suppress (as in for a significant enough time to allow an infantry to make a push) then tank becomes greater than infantry and you end up with pure unbalance. It annoys me oh so much when all of you generalize tanks and basically ask for blanket nerfs. All tanks are NOT the same. So stop generalizing them. Balance should look like this: AI tank (blaster) > infantry > AV infantry > AV tank (missile/rail) > AI tank I'm already forced to retreat with my missile tank at the presence of AV so I think that part of the equation is balanced. Blaster tanks have too much AV potential so that part still needs balancing through a blaster damage nerf. There needs to be a trade-off between AI and AV. Any argument that says that it shouldn't take a tank to kill a tank (as evidenced by AV tank > AI tank) is just wrong to make. Tanks and vehicles in general are very much roles just like infantry. Why does it take a dropsuit to kill an AV dropsuit then?
I never said you can't kill a tank with a tank, but it should not be the only viable option, if you prefer it would be more like this.
1man < (1 AI tank < 1 AV tank) < 1AV < 1man
Because an AV tank, even a Rail is better than infantry right now, because it's so damn survivable.
I generalise tanks no more than I generalize AI infantry.
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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Monkey MAC
Rough Riders..
2635
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Posted - 2014.04.23 18:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Monkey MAC wrote:I never said you can't kill a tank with a tank, but it should not be the only viable option, if you prefer it would be more like this.
1man < (1 AI tank < 1 AV tank) < 1AV < 1man
Because an AV tank, even a Rail is better than infantry right now, because it's so damn survivable.
I generalise tanks no more than I generalize AI infantry. That's what I'm trying to get at, thanks. AV infantry should have an easier time against AV tanks because those tanks can't fire back as effectively as an AI tank. AI tanks have the ability to shoot back at AV infantry, but there should be more factors involved than just simply saying that AV infantry > (AI) tank. If the AV infantry gets an appropriate drop on the AI tank, then the tank will either have to react quickly and tactically to engage and eliminate the infantryman, or retreat and not risk a loss. That's why I didn't place AV infantry and AI tanks next to each other, because it's not as easy as saying that one should beat the other. Personal skill and luck aside, the list generalizes how the counters should go. AV infantry should beat AV tanks, either by destroying them or forcing a retreat, though depending on how skilled the tanker is with their turret, they might be able to bring it to a stalemate. AV infantry against AI tanks should be about a stalemate, but depending on the situation and skill of both players, either side may get slightly favored. Basically, the list I brought up shows an order of effectiveness. AI tank > infantry > AV infantry > AV tank > AI tank. AI tanks are most effective against infantry and should be least effective against AV tanks. Similarly, AV infantry should be most effective against AV tanks, with reduced effectiveness against AI tanks and least effective against infantry. I consider infantry and AV tanks to be soft counters against themselves, because they can usually end up in a stalemate. Also, their hard counters (AI tanks and AV infantry, respectively) are much harder to engage and win against. I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. Again, I'm not trying to say that AV infantry can only take out AV tanks, for example. They will just have an easier time against them instead of AI tanks.
Yes of course, like we are both in agreement, an AI will always be better of than AV purely because of the AIs role, however that's down to the AVer
Unless your a Computer Scientist don't tell me how Game Mechanics Work.
Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior of the Trees Lvl 2.
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